Posts by not a captive

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Good morning, Tammy! Happy Saturday morning!

8

Update on Brother In Laws Condition - guarded hope

by WuzLovesDubs in

this was sent out by his son today: way better than i expected to hear today.... meeting with dr. hernandez (doctor taking over his case from today for a week 4/23 12:15pm.

right now were just waiting to see if hes going to wake up.

o the cocktail of medications he was on has been discontinued to see what alert response follows.

not a captive

Life is so fragile and so tough at the same time. It is good to hear how there is improvement! Maeve

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

The brothers met with me within a couple of weeks of receiving my letter. They read me scriptures to show that Abraham as good as offered his son (in sacrifice) but I pointed out that Jehovah not Abraham was in question. Jehovah'sinstruction to Abraham was the question. Nothing from one end of the scriptures to the other contradicted the idea that Jehovah did not command his friend to do what what God said he abhorred. The question was the Literature vs. the Bible.

One brother warned me against the temptation to pride. I acknowledged that consideration, but told him that the temptation to cowardice was more my problem. This brother said that he too had found this story of God telling Abraham to kill Isaac a difficult matter at one time but he had gotten past it. I told them that the account in My Book of Bible Stories was inaccurate and horrible. It misrepresented Jehovah. I could not read it to children or even adults. I asked if I might simply state when the subject came up that the Bible's wording allowed for an understanding of the test that was not only truer to the text but truer to Jehovah's character. Not that I judge his character. Jehovah himself AND Jesus set the standards for their own conduct, not I. This made using the Bible's words absolutely imperative. The three brothers said they would take the matter to the C.O. when he arrived that month. When I asked point-blank from which book I should teach "the Test" , the Bible or the Literature, the brother who had gotten over his own problems with Gen.22 laid his hand on My Book of Bible Stories and said "This one." I asked another if that were his judgement. He didn't answer.

When the C.O. arrived he gave me short shrift after the Thursday night meeting. I could understand. He had been sick and was very tired. He was new to our congregation and I was just a cranky, gratuitous problem. When I asked an elder if the C.O. was going to meet with me the brother said,"He doesn't have time in the schedule but why don't you go and talk to him now."

The elders were stand-offish since meeting about the letter. There was no after-the-meeting warmth. I was alone. I introduced myself and said that the I was the sister who had written a letter on the matter of Genesis22. Had he read the letter? "Not all of it, but can I ask you sister--- who is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?" I told him I knew. "So, What's your problem?" I expressed a word or two and he repeated his question about the FDS. I answered as before. Finally he said,"If you know who the FDS is and there is a problem, then who has the problem?" Now I had to say to him, " Brother, I was raised a Catholic. When you say a thing like that it raises a red flag for me." He was exasperated and started to leave telling me that this was not an appropriate setting for such a an exchange, but paused to ask me why I had not sent the matter to the Branch as a "Question from readers". Then I knew I was really in the soup. " I didn't send it in, brother, because it isn't a question."

He told me that he would meet with the elders to advise them what to do about me. I can't remember who of the brothers asked me not to discuss it with the friends, but I had not and did not.

Meetings were intolerable under this ban. It was traumatic to find myself without the same freedom as before within my own brotherhood. On my way to meeting one day I just pulled off the road. It impossible to continue. I stopped answering my phone except on calls I knew were not from the brothers and sisters. I did not find anything but misery in the meetings. I would wait for Jehovah to free my tongue.

Brothers met with me again after the Memorial. The brother who had told me to use the literature in the matter rather than to instruct from the Bible gave the Memorial talk. And so I knew I would have to wait on God.

Since I had always been regular at meetings there were questions. It was assumed that my son's DFing had stumbled me. Was my job okay? A former P.O. stopped in after work one day because friends in my old congregation had heard that I was not at the convention last summer. I told him that I was not free to talk. I assured him that it was no small matter but one that touched on what it meant to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Four sisters called on me individually. They had the best hearts and the truest concern. But we couldn't talk.

There was another meeting with two senior elders and for the first time one of them invited the reading from the Insight book on Jephthah's vow that I had hoped they would see as the reasonable avenue to my understanding of Genesis 22. The oldest one was impervious to the very reasoning that the society set out that was in no way different from my own. But the discussion never got off the ground.Mor than anything else they wanted me to admit that everything of the truth that I knew I had learned through the FDS. I told them that I would be a liar if I said so. I had known that the test of Abraham was as I had experienced it myself before I had ever met or heard of Jehovah's Witnesses, and having prayed and researched it these many years I knew it to be in perfect harmony with the scriptures. They assured me that they were not thinking badly of me butnot knowing what else to say what did I intend to do?

I told them I would write the Branch and plea for my conscience and God's honor.

I mailed the letter May 27, 2009. Brothers met with me at my apartment twice more. As time went on they wondered about the letter I had sent so I gave them a copy and had asked the Branch to send them a copy of their response to me. Time went on. They actually called the branch themselves to see if the letter had been received. The Branch told them to encourage me to resume meetings while they prepared a response. I respectfully declined until I was free to talk.

August 31 a thick envelope from Patterson , NY arrived. I felt sick and happy at the same time. I read and reread the contents. Some of it was irritating, and part of it made me laugh. Nothing in it was persuasive or particularly respectful. Nothing felt holy in the content. It was very disappointing on one hand because I still had no clear path to follow. One thing was clear however, the Society considered the matter closed and any further issues that the letter didn't resolve should be taken up with my elders again. And that failing I was to read a back issue Watchtower "Do you tend to be stumbled?" End of conversation.

The brothers met with me once more on October 11, 2009 and we had a very honest, searching conversation notwithstanding it began withasking whether or not I had been talking to anyone about the matter. I told them I had not spoken to any of the congregation but I was ever free and had spoken as freely as ever to anyone else. They read scripture from Titus 3:8-10. I assured them that I was not in the least interested in disturbing anyone's faith as I had a real care for my own. In fact, so little was I interested instarting my own sect or group or religion that I was resolved that if i had learne anything from the example of Abraham it was that the only true religion was no religion at all. Again they expressed there desire that I rejoin the meetings. Again I left without a clear way. But promised that I would let them know if I began to get "rowdy" but told them I would not be silent forever.

I sent a letter of disassociation to them on March 10, 2010.

Words cannot describe the relief. I do not feel the weight of Jehovah's displeasure at all. I feel warmth and a light that gets brighter every day.

Maeve

508

Most-Ignored Scriptures by JWs

by Mad Sweeney in

the watchtower has been known for over 130 years as a great scriptural cherry-picker.

they pick out disparate unrelated verses and combine them to support the wackiest of wacky doctrines.. on the other hand there are many scriptures they almost never address, whether because they contradict wt doctrine or because they simply don't have a clue what they mean or how to spin them to the wt advantage.. one of these is revelation 19:1 that mentions a "great crowd" "in heaven.

" the only time it is ever brought up it is dismissed.

not a captive

Matthew 24

" Wherever the corpse is, there will the vultures gather." Jerusalem Bible

"Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." New World Translation

"Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather." New International Version

The Witnesses in their Insight books do not attempt to explain this scripture; but then neither do other religious groups. In verses preceding this cryptic line, Jesus warns disciples not to run here and there answering the call of false prophets or false Christs.

No religious group can understand this warning because it refers to them as a corpse, a dead body. The living Body of Christ is not embodied in a religious group. No, Christ is not there.

Maeve

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Re: Getting into arguments with JWs

Should Witnesses be allowed to hold a personal view of a Bible reading as long as it does not directly threaten to undercut WTS doctrine? If not, then how can we let ourselves read and research? Might we not form a wrong view and become an unwitting apostate?

Since I was merely taking a more conservative view of the writing at Genesis 22 and was not overthrowing a cherished doctrine of the WTS after all, I appealed to them to let me stay with my understanding of Jehovah's test of Abraham. I told them I could either be a true witness of Jehovah or one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I pleaded for my conscience.

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Your second point was precisely how I introduced my first letter to the elders.In blowing the whistle on myself I told them that unity and faith is destroyed more thoroughly by a silent dissentor than one who is open about it. For myself there was no unity possible after years of putting this on the back burner. And no one's faith is built up by my hypocrisy. Of seven million JWs I told them my conscience would not let me be complicit in promoting a story that slandered God. I pointed out that faith is a private matter, what each of us cultivate between God and ourselves and so cannot thrive and grow strong when our conscience condemns us. I asked to be persuaded otherwise than the conclusions I was convinced the scriptures taught concerning Genesis 22. By reminding them that the references to Jephthah's vow in the Insight Books certainly leads one to the conclusion that I had reached I hoped they would understand how I ended up in my predicament. This kind of inquiry is no more or less than what we claim to do with any other Bible student that we deal with. This procedure is the basis, so I believed, of sharing the good news and having a healthy brotherhood.

I was surprised that no one considered looking at the Bible study material that addressed the subject, even though it was not from "illicit" sources. The only question that concerned the elders and the CO was how I regarded the FDS.

I know it wasn"t easy for them. I guarantee it was harder for me.

14

DEBATE: Reliability of BIBLE TRUTH

by Terry in

this is the very end of a compelling debate.

if it grabs you go back and watch the whole thing.. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzxkqz8xx1e&feature=related.

not a captive

The most trenchant observation was made in the final minute of ithe video. That the church grew for fifteen years after the death of Jesus without so much as a catechism or a Require brochure says much, in my opinion. The weight of responsible action was left to the discretion of each believer. The presumption that establishing a governor of doctrines makes for model churches, model christians is knocked all to hell.

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

MadJ?

You are unusually quiet on the board tonight.

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

You know, I'm thinking that Jesus was not a Jew or a Christian. He was just faithful. I think religions get caught up so much in "message control" and most of us buy into it. What about the Way and tha Truth and the Life? I've been thinking about that. I do not dismiss any of the teachings of Jesus at all. I'm just having to reevaluate them since I was squeezed out of religion this year.

I follow your posts, mindmelda, and I enjoy the sharp points you make.

Good night . Maeve

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Hello MadJ, Just saw your last post. I appreciate your remarks. As to who forbid me--- initially it was my local elders starting at March of 2009. Please let me explain myself before you suppose that I had stirred up any congregational shism or issues in this completely private study of Genesis 22--because I took care not to stumble anyone. I had never looked on any "apostate" web sights or associated with any group who had an ax to grind with the Society.As long ago as 2005 I took the matter up with our then C.O. with no outcome other than a very civil and searching discussion after which he just asked me what I would do. I said that I supposed I would eventually write the Society.

As time past I found it impossible to say nothing during Watchtower Studies and Book Studies since I knew the Bible's words were so much more generous to Jehovah than the renderings in our literature. But still I didn't make an issue of it. Finally there came a day when I could no longer intolerate being a witness of the true God who kept her mouth shut (Rather how you feel MadJ?) So I wrote the local elders that I was reporting a problem person in the congregation--myself! I gave a brief outline of the facts as I knew them and told them that the way Abraham's test is presented in My Book of Bible Stories was revolting; that it amounted to a slander of Jehovah. I gave them this letter and acknowledged that it put us all in a difficult position.

The repercussions of that letter took a year to play out. If you wished to know more, I am not ashamed to tell anyone although it has been painful to feel the censure of my brothers for declining to support the literature on this topic. I did end up writing the Branch. But afrom the very first of this process the brothers checked with me periodically to remind me that I was not to discuss the views I held on Genesis 22 and to remind me that we only learn the Truth through the Faithful Slave. The last meeting I had with the brothers they were very respectful but repeated the warning against talking to the brothers and sisters on the subject. We read Titus 3:9,10 together. I told them that I was not interested in starting a new religion or sect--far from it . The experience that I had had with them along with the Society's response convinced me that Abraham's faith was antithetical to corporate religion.

I would be glad to answer whatever questions you have about the events that took place that moved me out of the Organization. I have copies of the written correspondence that took place between the Branch and myself.

I am a sinner; but in this matter I did nothing wrong except take seriously my obligation before God. Maeve